“The problem is not insurmountable, but it is much deeper that you think. Do me a favour: Learn.”

This, of course, assumes you know how deep I think the problem is. I don’t think I’ve given any indication of this in my posts, so unless you know me personally I’m curious as to how you have such an intimate knowledge of my thoughts. The alternative is that you’re simply posturing in a bid to make your own opinions sound more credible.

Look I agree with you on pretty much everything. The problem is extremely complicated and extremely deeply rooted in the culture. In my opinion the growth of the middle class in China coupled with greater exposure to the international community will inevitably change that culture. You can disagree with me, but don’t accuse me of being ignorant just because you do so. At the end of the day you have about as much knowledge of what will happen as I do. It’s difficult for anyone to predict.

However, in my rather humble opinion, a new generation of Chinese students are being educated abroad and are obtaining first hand exposure to liberal democratic societies. Sure, not all of them will be sympathetic, but a great deal will return to China with a broader experience which will be passed down to their children and so on. Coupled with rising wealth and in turn an expanding middle class eventually the challenge to the CCPs tyranny will be made. Like I agreed, the problem is deep and it is complicated, but while the change may come slowly it will come.

It’s no coincidence that 19 of the 20 richest nations (by GDP) all maintain some form of democracy. The exception is China.

What we do not want to do is play into the CCPs hands by discouraging the common people from viewing the international community with an open mind. The Chinese are a proud people with a beautiful culture. Learning about it, understanding it and engaging with it (as opposed to engaging with the CCP) will further strengthen trust in the people and a willingness to reciprocate that engagement. I think the Olympics was a good opportunity for that.

My quip about comprehension was not made in a derogatory way. I meant it literally, and in a straight way. The thing you need to comprehend here, is that no matter which way we may speak, all of us here have actually contributed to this ‘engagement’ on a personal level, face-to-face, day-to-day basis. That is all we can do. We cannot engage with the ‘Chinese people’ as a collective entity. And our leaders (and our media) cannot do it, either, the things being what they are. They are only ‘engaging’ the ‘emperors’. Sure, a degree of engagement is alright there, too; better then outright belligerence. But the only way it can work is to ‘speak softly, and carry a big stick’. Anything else is bullshit, and will help no-one, least of all the Chinese.

Keep in mind that no-one wants an all out conflict, but if the world needs China, China needs the world even more. Alone and isolated, they are nothing. And if we do not want that to happen, we better draw a line between engagement, and toadying.

As for the issue of CCP culpability versus the very fabric of Chinese society at large (never mind the CCP’s role in destruction of the same), that’s a topic worthy of a Phd thesis. But it is a reality, whether or not you are willing to see it. As MyLaowai put it (#10):

“…you could slaughter the entire Party membership today and replace them all with a random sampling of ordinary citizens tomorrow morning, and by tea time you’d be hard pressed to spot the difference…”

The problem is not insurmountable, but it is much deeper that you think. Do me a favour: Learn.

Perhaps you’ll join me by noting that my original reply agreed that the case can easily be made for stronger exposure of the CCP’s activities in the Western media. Certainly not arguing against that, simply that the engagement you spoke of must be a part of the process if the necessary change is to come from within.

Seems we all agree that it would be desirable. What we seem to disagree on is whether it’s possible. I not only think it’s possibe, but inevitable, however long and complicated the road may be.

Mrs MyLaowai tends to agree with what I say, too, although she puts it in less confrontational terms – and she’s born and raised here.

Sadly, neither of them will ever be able to achieve their full potential in this society, because it’s the society itself that is the problem – not merely a handful of butchers in Beijing.

Except maybe you read into MyLaowai’s words what you THINK he says, not what he actually does say. Practise the art of comprehension, please, not only of the post, but also of (say) comment #7. Defeatism? Hardly, unless you yourself confuse 1.3bn people with the CCP. What I read in MyLaowai’s post is the anger with that part of ‘free’ media blinkered with their infatuation with the ‘China miracle’, to the point of forgetting to call a spade a spade! THEY are undermining everyone’s effort to improve anything in China. Not me, not MyLaowai.

Yes,I have heard of virtues of ‘engagement’. But how does ‘appeasement’ or ‘sucking up to’ sound to you? And where is the dividing line? Keep in mind, not many common Chinese read this blog; we are exchanging our thoughts here, and are very unlikely to hurt their feelings, whatever that means.

Mind you, I do not speak for MyLaowai, I speak for myself. Arguably, I am the resident redneck of this blog, and I HATE China because I LOVE some people who have no choice but to live there – my family, their friends. I try to be optimistic for their sake, but I am not blind to the fallacy of ‘changing China’… there are some very serious flaws in that society, that make the CCP’s dominance possible. Yes, the change must come from within, but the way ahead is much longer and complicated than you may think.

Anyway, welcome to the club of the disoriented in the Orient.

P.S. MyLaowai – You beat me to it; yes, I know I am a slacker! But no matter; I still need to speak for myself…

Defeatist? Not at all. I’ll fight to the very end to stop that happening.

Scum the CCP are, you hit the proverbial nail square on the head with that, but you could slaughter the entire Party membership today and replace them all with a random sampling of ordinary citizens tomorrow morning, and by tea time you’d be hard pressed to spot the difference. The Chinese themselves know that this is the way things have always been here, and practically every serious intellectual in the country’s history has made that point (and not seen much of a problem with it, in most cases). The Communists are bad, very bad, but all they did was take something that already existed, and refine it to the point of near-perfection (when seen through the eyes of a genocidal, xenophobic madman, anyway).

I’d love to be wrong about all this, I’d truly love to see an actual, positive change for the first time since the Legalists decided to start the worlds most extensive and longest lasting human culling program (anyone with a brain or a backbone – chop! chop!). And if that day comes while I still have breath in my body, I swear by the Lords of Kobol that I’ll eat my own hair.

Fingers crossed, chaps.

The change I am talking about is exactly the type of change that is needed if the country will get rid of these arseholes. It’s a change within the people. From my experience talking with many of them a great deal are beginning to realise the problems their society faces precisely because they have had exposure to other ways of life. That’s not supposed to sound condascending, but one of the best ways of keeping a society in the dark is by keeping a society in the dark. Dictatorships tend to maintain power this way.

MyLaowai summed up his defeatist attitude rather succinctly when he said he is in no way concerned with bettering China’s situation. Fortunately for the Chinese it’s not him who has to be concerned, just them.