Haiti. A quick FYI.
Posted by MyLaowai on Thursday, April 1, 2010
The international community has pledged a total of $9.9 billion dollars in immediate and long-term aid to earthquake-hit Haiti at a UN donor conference, with $5.3 billion dollars worth of support over the next two years, far exceeding the $4 billion dollars requested by the Haitian government to rebuild infrastructure.
“This is the down-payment Haiti needs for wholesale national renewal,” UN chief Ban Ki-moon said in New York.
Here’s how the cookie crumbled:
EU $1.7bn
US $1.15bn
Spain $466m
Canada $390m
World Bank $250m
France $243m
Brazil $172m
China, the nation with the world’s largest cash reserves, has ‘promised’ a mere $1.3 million, less than one cent per person, and that was from the Red Cross of China. Nothing at all from the Party or People. Even Slovakia did better than that. China, be fucking ashamed of yourself.
Cheap, uncaring bastards.
Wo Shi Laowai - Wo Pa Shui 
Sinosceptic said
Why would a country that doesn’t give a fuck about it’s own people give a fuck about any other’s?
Sinosceptic said
It’s their ‘Party’ and they won’t cry if they don’t want to.
Chinese Netizen said
Does Haiti recognize the CCP or Taiwan currently?
If it’s the CCP then this is a great opportunity for Taiwan, the free and independent Republic of China, to step in and assert the moral high ground…
MyLaowai said
Haiti has full diplomatic relations with the independent nation of Taiwan.
Why is why… Well, obviously.
Taiwan also stepped up and donated more than China. But then, they are a better class of person, after all.
Sinosceptic said
Ah, so that’s why.
justrecently said
This argument looks somewhat dodgy to me. Btw, a commenter on many eyes claims that the Netherlands top the list.
0112337 said
Ok, how much did the Europeans steal from Haiti during the French occupation? In today’s currency terms, how much would those produce equate to?
Check up on Haiti’s history, how much did Haiti pay in order to gain independence from France? They were paying the effects of that debt all the way up to that last year. THAT was a major contributor to Haiti’s depressing economic performance.
You bastards should give them that much for what you have done, no, you should give more. You barbaric thieves, murderers, colonists.
SHAME ON YOU.
Scoobydo said
“You barbaric thieves, murderers, colonists.”
Are you familiar with the term, ‘the Chinese Empire’?
China doesn’t even have the decency to call somewhere it colonises a colony. They invade it and then maintain that it has always been sovereign Chinese territory.
Xinjiang, Taiwan, Tibet, Guangdong, Inner Mongolia. Well, most of China was actually taken over by the sword with hordes of Han settlers following in the wake.
Sorry mate. You need to take off your rose coloured glasses and realise that China holds no moral superiority in this issue. China, if anything, is a worse imperialists than the West ever was.
Besides, for a country that is so proud of its apparent economic success, its a bit tight with the sheckles.
Less than 1 cent per person. It speaks for itself.
0112337 said
Wait Scoobydog, perhaps you and our friend Mr. Nazi are right. Maybe China needs to break with tradition and conquer you by the sword in order for you animals to see the light. Simple dialogue and information exchange won’t work. Assholes only understand force. During the 1700-1800s you animals conquered by the sword, now you try to conquer through culture. This really is like “playing a lyre to cows”.
Very well. You can enjoy your “higher moral standing” if you want. We will conquer you and enslave you European style, and then maybe you will see the light.
Europeans are arrogant savages at heart, impervious to reason. Five hundred years of civilization clearly wasn’t enough. I should have known that.
0112337 said
1. Xinjiang – A turkish tribe asked the Qing emperor to help him defeat his enemies in return for nominal and political allegiance. The Qing emperor sent his 铁骑 to the west and destroyed that enemy tribe. In return, the leader of that Turkish tribe proclaimed the Qing emperor as his Khan. This was the origin of the Xinjiang-Qing alliance which lasted to this day. Xinjiang is autonomous, and the Uighur Turks there, by all accounts live in peace with the Han.
2. Taiwan- Laowai, you know nothing of China. Taiwanese are provincial, homosexual dogs who think they are not Chinese anymore after earning some money and being fucked by the Dutch and the Japanese. They are Chinese through and through…culturally and linguistically. Most of them came from Fujian China. Taiwan is not a colony.
3. Tibet – Yes, I somewhat agree with you on this one. Tibetans really don’t want to be part of China and their history and culture was very much different from ours. Their kingdom in the past used to be called the Tufan, and they were a major threat to the Tang dynasty. But again, during the Qing dynasty, they willingly accepted Qing overlordship. The story goes, if Mao wasn’t against religion, the Dalai Lama would have no problem being a vassal to the PRC. But again, you Laowais have no business talking about this. You are a guest, that’s all. You should worry about where to find the hottest girls to breed (They are from Sichuan and Dongbei), how to earn local money, and how to enjoy your stay.
4. Guangdong? Guangdong? the fuck? Of all the crap I heard from self righteous Laowai schmucks, this has to be the best so far. Since when is Guangdong a colony? Is Bordeaux a colony of France? Hamburg a colony of Germany? Fuck you, your sister, your mother, grandmother, and ancestors five generations up.
5. Inner Mongolia – Same reasoning as 1.
China is not the land of the Han. Get over it. Do not think of China as only where the Han dominates or traditionally dominated.
MyLaowai said
Mind you, it isn’t as if Scoobydo is actually wrong with any of what he said, as has been reported elsewhere.
Scoobydo said
“Guangdong? Guangdong? the fuck?”
My poor petal, oh how you are so limited in your choice of history books. Its almost as if you have only read the ones prescribed by the CCP.
Never mind. In the best Chinese tradition, don’t worry about the truth. Just do your best to bully people to agree with your version of reality and then that is reality!
Sorted.
Scoobydo said
“China is not the land of the Han. Get over it. Do not think of China as only where the Han dominates or traditionally dominated.”
Are you on drugs?
Sinosceptic said
I like this thread. I can sense a lot of good reading coming up over Easter, as well as my lunch on some occasions.
PS – let’s not forget that 0112337 isn’t really Chinese.
Scoobydo said
“PS – let’s not forget that 0112337 isn’t really Chinese”
Well, that’s obvious, isn’t it?
We can’t be 100% sure of where he comes from except that he doesn’t come from China. He does have links there though. Maybe is granny?
He understands a few things about China. Usually he is way of the mark though, almost as if he doesn’t have much experience of China and is trying to work out the gaps in his knowledge using logic.
Still, an interesting chap who is obviously undergoing some inner turmoil. I hope he doesn’t have access to a gun.
0112337 said
“We can’t be 100% sure of where he comes from except that he doesn’t come from China. He does have links there though. Maybe is granny?”
This is hilarious. I must show my Chinese friends this. I will probably post this on Mop, Xiaonei, or Facebook. A Laowai who thinks he knows more about China than a Chinese person….lol… A real European Sinologist.
“He understands a few things about China. Usually he is way of the mark though, almost as if he doesn’t have much experience of China and is trying to work out the gaps in his knowledge using logic.”
Well I will be damned. Clearly you are a far better businessman than I. One with far more assets, guanxi, enterprises, and free time. So much so that you are here sulking about it along with the other euro losers who clearly didn’t make it in the China market.
Good luck with what you are doing man. Just remember hating and cynicism is not the way to getting your point across in China. The more you criticize, the more Chinese people will rise against you.
Sinosceptic said
“…with the other euro losers who clearly didn’t make it in the China market.” – That would be ‘Euro’, numbnut.
I’ve shown some of your ‘rants’ to my Chinese friends and even they don’t believe you’re Chinese. I’m far too polite to tell you exactly what they did say they thought you were.
0112337 said
Hahaha….what did they say? Don’t be shy.
0112337 said
Your friends in Scotland are old Chinese, they have been in Scotland for too long and are out of touch with China’s younger generation. A lot has changed over the past 5 years. You can tell them I am African, no, an African Muslim…
This is good. Europeans and Americans today are doing exactly what we have been doing for the past 20 years. You don’t understand us? We don’t understand you either. I have tried to explain your culture and history to other Chinese people for many years. They are equally fascinated.
Good luck to everyone reading this, wherever you are, whatever you may be doing.
Chinese Netizen said
All this seems to be good reasoning behind why Vietnam and the US are reassessing their relationship and that recently a US Naval vessel had repairs and refitting done in Cam Ranh Bay (something unthinkable in China).
Seems the Viets are a bit wary of the peaceful, non-harmful, loving, harmonious, Confucius worshipping CCP…
0112337 said
Foreign netizen, the Vietnamese defined their national identity on their struggle against the Chinese. Their government’s job was, for centuries, to copy Chinese government policies and prevent Chinese encroachments.
justrecently said
Well, I said it before, and I will say it again, Sinosceptic: Mr Unlucky Number is in all likelihood Chinese.
His complaint about euro losers who clearly didn’t make it in the China market is a typical example. He can’t believe that people may be fairly successful and satisfied with their daily life, and still write down some useful information about his country.
Besides, “shaming” people into silence usually works on people like him – so he’s trying it on others – not understanding that to be a loser isn’t the only possible explanation for other peoples’ indignation.
And why hasn’t he dropped silent on this blog? Easy. Because this is the only remaining place for him where he can have a word with some real people.
0112337 said
My girlfriend is an European. We had too many of these cultural conversations together to the point that I think a lot of conflicts between China and the West stems from cultural, historical, and political misunderstandings. That is why I come here to post my opinions in the hope that through genuine understanding, we can all live together in peace.
There’s only one planet earth after all.
Scoobydo said
“Well I will be damned. Clearly you are a far better businessman than I. One with far more assets, guanxi, enterprises, and free time.
0112337”
I thought you said you were an arithmetic teacher?
MyLaowai said
@ Mr. Pythagoras,
You say:
“My girlfriend is an European”;
“I come here to post my opinions in the hope that through genuine understanding, we can all live together in peace”;
“There’s only one planet earth after all”
But you also say:
“You barbaric thieves, murderers, colonists”;
“China needs to break with tradition and conquer you by the sword in order for you animals to see the light”;
“We will conquer you and enslave you”;
“Europeans are arrogant savages at heart, impervious to reason”;
“you Laowais have no business talking about this. You are a guest, that’s all.”;
“Fuck you, your sister, your mother, grandmother, and ancestors five generations up.”;
“Africans and black people, on the other hand, are associated with the jungle”;
“Chinese people still think that much of Africa is the jungle. When they hear the word ‘African’, they think of savages in lion skin chasing after zebras and giraffes.”;
“If we wanted, we can lynch all of you petty crackas’ confederate country style right there and there is nuthin’ y’all government can do ab’t it.”;
“We don’t offer protection for foreign assholes. You are not equal before the law.”;
“we will NEVER allow a foreigner to criticize our homeland.”;
“we will DESTROY you by all means.”;
“most Americans can barely read. They are basically a mob of wild, ignorant, self-interested, semi-illiterate, petty, agressive farmers.”
So, Sparky, which is it? Genuine understanding, or unstable xenophobic Han hatred? I know what it looks like from my side of the flatscreen.
Twat.
0112337 said
You try to convey genuine observations through your blog don’t you? Well, I try to convey genuine observations from the other side as well. I can write praises of the West all the time to show how much we love the West and western technology but would that be genuine?
Do you Westerners want to hear lies only to find out the truth the hard way when or if you come to China?
MyLaowai, you are painting a distorted picture of China through your blog. One that is 20 years old with a Nazi inclination. This is not reflective of how things really are, right now.
Chinese people are a deeply proud people. We are deeply proud of our culture and history. We can admire and love outsiders but that does not mean we will tolerate their criticism or advocacy for change. You can ask Mrs. MyLaowai about this. Most of the hostility toward westerners in China today result from your collective, ignorant criticisms. You don’t understand us, yet you feel qualified to persistently criticize us from your shallow observations. Moreover, some of you actively forcing changes onto China according to your false observations. This is pissing off a lot of people.
Many young Chinese males vent on the internet due to social pressure (school, unemployment..etc) and because they see China becoming an Europe or America, a foreign entity, something they couldn’t understand, that is not Confucianist and not Chinese. This transformation is killing our culture, our soul, yet so many blind Chinese people today are heading down that path like obedient sheep, without uttering a sound. You westerners don’t understand this, nor do you really understand the depth of Chinese civilization and culture beyond the superficialities you see today (which is not really Chinese in itself). Modern European culture is defined by superficial pluralism. Any groups that tries to protect your ancient, indigenous culture you label violent, racist, or extremist, and thus associated with crazy people. You connect these groups with Nazism, which was violent and aggressive.
But that is not true for us. Many Chinese nationalists are simply trying to protect their way of life in the face of such drastic changes. We may curse on the internet, but we will never resort to violence in real life unless pushed to the extreme. We have a very high tolerance. For thousands of years, we have lived the same way, according to the same rituals. Now, after 50+ years of communism, which is itself not Chinese, Chinese people have reached a stage where they don’t believe in anything anymore except money and you westerners are fueling the stimulus that feeds this disease.
It is eating us from the inside. If changes are not made, within 50 years China will either become completely un-Chinese, disintegrate, or turn into the evilest empire on earth. Do you understand that Europe and America are already disintegrating? Educated Chinese nationalists do not want to see this happen to China.
Sinosceptic said
The ‘an’ is used before words that have a vowel ‘sound’, not just a vowel as the first letter. It would be ‘a Europe…’ or ‘a European…’ since Europe begins with the ‘U’ vowel sound – not because it begins with an ‘E’. Evident in American English for example with the word ‘herb’ which is pronounced with a silent ‘h’ and hence an ‘e’ sound at the beginning and they say ‘an herb’. Not so in PROPER English where we pronounce the ‘h’ and say ‘a herb’. The same probably holds true for hotel, but I am far from an expert on English.
On the same slow train of thought, then in American English you might be (sounds like) an assole, but in Proper English, you’d still be just an asshole.
Thank you for listening.
Sinosceptic said
edit – that didn’t come out the way I intended it, but it’s too damn early here to change it.
0112337 said
I am surprised by how fast you Laowais learn. Here’s a joke, a real story about something that happened two years ago. When I went back to Beijing to see the Olympics, a very interesting thing happened at the snack stand inside the tennis stadium. Everybody was lining up in front of the snack stand to get their food, and this young, short, white guy just walked up, squeezed, and cut in front of everybody. Even in front of the Chinese people! And he did it seamlessly!
Wow…see that was a surprise to me. Most Chinese people, up to about 10 years ago, thought people in the west were all supposed to be civilized, educated, kind, and good mannered. And here was this guy. I was thinking, the fucker didn’t learn anything good while in China, but he learned to cut lines. And he is a master at it too! Even better than the best of us. He skillfully placed himself at the point where the line was broadest, squeezed forward, while looking wildly about (to distract others from his obscene behavior). He even pushed some of the CHINESE people out with his body. That is EXACTLY how we do it! This guy was unstoppable. He had it all figured out.
Afterwards, he started talking to me in broken Chinese about the weather. About how hot it was that day. I knew he was French, from his accent, and that he was trying to practice his Chinese on me so I decided to play a harmless joke.
I asked back in fluent English (my oral English is decent from having gone abroad for a few years), whether people are forced to cut lines in France as well. He looked at me, stunned, unable to make out who I was, or how to respond, since…we all know how French people don’t like to speak English and how Europeans in general doubt Chinese awareness of western culture…so he thought a while and at last said he was Greek and moved away.
That made my day. I was very happy.
MyLaowai said
So, let me see if I understand this…
A hated Laowai can learn how to act like a Chinese whilst in China. Yes?
Funny, because I’ve never seen anyone from the PRC abroad who holds the door for anyone else, who uses a litter bin, who uses a public toilet, who gives up a seat on a bus for anyone, who speaks softly, who behaves with integrity, who can drive a car, who can walk in a straight line… Well, it’s a long list, but you get the point.
No wonder you were so surprised at how fast we learn.
0112337 said
I see, so talking sense to you will come to no avail. I have to be an asshole to make you understand. But I will make one final attempt.
If your country has 1 billion poor, uneducated, ignorant people, who went through communism, who grew up in a society where there’s a persistent lack of resource and a persistent excess of fierce competition, where every child knows that society is unequal, unfair, cutthroat, and doesn’t reward hard work…they would behave the same way too.
You westerners are no more holier than us.
Rapunzel said
No, you are wrong there. Queue jumping was invented 5,000 years ago in Argos, Greece.
Rapunzel said
So you mistook a Greek for a French and replied to him in English and then gave yourself a pat on the back? Wow, you lead an exciting life.
Let’s all hang out with 0112337 and then maybe exciting things will happen to us too.
Do you know they have a type of cheese in Italy that is covered in wriggling maggots that try to jump into your eyes when you try to eat it? You have to cover it with your hand as you eat it. It’s called Casu Marzu. But try to tell that to a Chinese and see what happens. They will get all insecure and then suddenly rush to interrupt you to tell you that they have tofu with maggots in in China before you can get to the interesting part about the maggots trying to jump into your eyes. Try it; it’s an interesting psychological experiment because Chinese don’t have the monopoly on interesting and unusual things to eat at all, a misconception in which they find much consolation.
0112337 said
About your Casu Marzu…
I am a Northerner, and traditional northerners are actually quite ordinary in our diet. For us, it’s beef, chicken, lamb, pork, seafood, and an occasional dog (they are really good, tastes like very very tender beef). It’s the southerners who eat everything. It’s disgusting. They really do eat every animal, decomposed, dead, or alive. That’s why they get all those strange diseases and some of them are deformed looking. I am surprised there are still animals in the south.
My girlfriend and I were in Beijing a few years ago and she said she wanted to know more about my city’s culinary culture. So we went to gui jie (ghost street) night market to look for exotic Beijing delicacies. I couldn’t believe what they have now. Fried grasshopper, cicada, and sea horse kabobs along with goat eyeballs and monkey brains. Sick, sick, sick. These provincial peasants are ruining my city’s image. I am glad they didn’t sell deep fried human vaginas or penises.
Traditional Beijing delicacies are stuff like green bean paste cakes, “donkey rolling on the ground” (REALLY GOOD), “cat ears” (a sweet pastry), tang hulu (candied crab apples on a stick), stinky tofu, and such…
Rapunzel said
Food wasn’t exactly my point, but never mind.
Rapunzel said
Actually the Greeks are just as good at jumping queues as the Chinese. There’s a page about Greek queue jumping here:
http://blog.nps2.org/article/the-mechanics-of-queue-jumping/
If you ever go to Greece you’ll probably be surprised to find it’s not just a small version of America as most Chinese assume, but is actually a completely different culture of its own. No, just because you have seen a few Hollywood movies does not make you an expert on all of the European countries, the USA, Canada, Australia etc etc and I highly recommend you do not attempt to put this “knowledge” to good use by trying to communicate with foreigners in the supposed standard Western way of boasting about any and every trivial nonsense that pops into mind because it will not endear you to Westerners as you suppose it will.
0112337 said
That’s not the point. Did you think I was trying to endear myself to you? No, not at all. I don’t know any of you, nor do I really want to know you. I thought this blog was supposed to be trash. Isn’t that the point? People come here to vent? Don’t you see how ridiculous it is? This Mr. MyLaowai draws some ugly caricature of China and you expats come and spew random shit and half assed observations on the topic after being either cheated, beaten, ignored, rejected, debased, or flat out robbed there. Then your fellow, ignorant, countrymen come here and absorb it all. I come to vent too about what I observe.
My job is very stressful and I work long hours.
I find it funny that you Europeans and Americans could find the rants of this Mr. MyLaowai as actual truths about China. I guess you can say I am playing along by enhancing the quality of this rant with rants from the other side? Out of trash from both sides come truth… maybe?
“No, just because you have seen a few Hollywood movies does not make you an expert on all of the European countries, the USA, Canada, Australia etc etc”
I never said I am an expert of ALL European countries. Nobody can, not even an European. I know a bit about European history and I know more about America because I studied and lived there for a long time. Although I lived in Europe for a while, I am certainly no expert of ALL European countries just like none of you are experts of China. Do you all know China? Yet don’t you, along with this Mr. MyLaowai, come and brag to other people as “experts of China”?
Rapunzel said
|My job is very stressful and I work long hours.
My heart bleeds.
I don’t think you were under stress and working long hours when you were in Beijing for the Olympics, somehow, so that’s no excuse for jumping to conclusions for the sake of an excuse to pat yourself on the back.
0112337 said
Were you there or are you criticizing me for the sake of it?
Rapunzel said
|are you criticizing me for the sake of it?
Now you know what it feels like.
Rapunzel said
Perhaps you should have asked him:
Είναι οι άνθρωποι που αναγκάστηκαν να περικόψουν τις γραμμές στη Γαλλία καθώς και;
in fluent Greek?
I think the reason why he said he was Greek and looked flummoxed at your self-congratulatory “wise crack” was perhaps because he was Greek? Did that never cross your mind because you were in too much of a hurry to congratulate yourself?
0112337 said
No, he wasn’t Greek. He was French for sure. I am positive. Laowais from different parts of Europe speak Chinese with different accents. Maybe you can’t hear it, but native Chinese speakers can, if they listen carefully and if they met many Europeans speaking Chinese before.
Seasoned Chinese business people who knows a bit about the west and who trades regularly with Westerners can make very good guesses on where you are from without you opening your mouth. Once you open your mouth, they can locate you very well. We do this all the time with ourselves. Chinese people from each region speaks with a distinct accent.
You Europeans can tell which part of Europe a person is from too by listening to how he/she speaks right? The Germans pronounce “w” like a “v” when they speak English, the Italians speak like as if if they say everything using the fourth tone in Mandarin? The Spaniards and Italians like to roll their “r”s (with Spain Spaniards pronouncing the “z” in Spanish like a “th” in English from copying their retarded king who couldn’t speak? Ex. La Platha in Madrid = La Plaza in Latin America)? Romanian sounds very close to Italian, and very few Europeans except native English speakers or veteran English speakers can pronounce the “th” sound in English correctly?
On the other hand, I always found it hard to accurately guess a Swede when he or she speaks English. Many of them speak English very well, to my surprise, like as if they were native speakers. I try to guess their origin by their height and good manners.
My point is, people in the end are all the same. Whatever you do to figure out people, we do as well. The political, religious, economic, and educational system people grew up in shapes them into who they are.
MyLaowai said
Just remember this, Sparky:
When you are abroad, it’s you who is the ‘Laowai’.
Rapunzel said
Absolute crap. He was Greek. His Greek behaviour and the fact that he said “I am Greek” kind of give it away, Sherlock. You have made a complete ass of yourself with your self-congratulatory, delusional post and the laugh is on you, 0112337, I’m afraid.
Do you know what a Greek accent sounds like? I thought not. You think you can distinguish a French accent from an accent you don’t even know with your infallible auditory senses, Tosh? In your dreams, mate.
Anyway, thank you very much for your insights. We are not experts on China, but are experts on the experience of living as a white person in China, something to which even your encyclopedic knowledge of the world does not extend.
Perhaps the truth will come out? So we are all bitter because we have been beaten up by Chinese? Yeah, right! Ignored? If only I could be ignored! It would be heaven!
I must admit, you do have your rare moments of candour, and on the whole, I’d say your delusional, contradictory, self-congratulatory ramblings are rather like excrement, in that they contain enough nuggets of nutrition to sustain life for some.
0112337 said
Fine, believe what you will then. But after some thought, I think he was too embarrassed to say he was French. He probably knew about Greeks’ habit of cutting lines as well. I don’t know if he was intentionally trying to make fun of us by imitating us.
0112337 said
Oh and I didn’t mean beaten as in being physically beaten but beaten in a competition…business or otherwise. Chinese people wouldn’t beat you physically in China. We treat you as guests.
In fact we treat you ingrates all too well, it is a problem.
Rapunzel said
With hosts like that, who needs enemies?
Rapunzel said
I don’t think he was embarrassed. If it were me I would be proud.
Rapunzel said
I’m European and didn’t know about Greek queue jumping until I investigated.
This is what I have found about Greece:
They believe in a conspiracy to contain them, headed by the chief imperial aggressor, Turkey, in the absence of which Greece would naturally rise to its rightful place at the head of the nations and Greek would be the international language.
They cling to the belief that they are the ethnically pure descent of the ancient Greeks, whose genius they thereby inherit, despite abundant historical evidence that such is not the case.
They lay claim to 5,000 years of history.
They won’t recognize Macedonia because they say the name Macedonia is a Greek name.
Etc.
Yes, the Chinese do not have as much of a monopoly on Chineseness as they imagine. Take Tubbs and Edward in the remote English village of Royston Vasey.
Rapunzel said
You’re only bitter because you were fooled into believing Chinese Netizen was in fact, a Chinese netizen.
Rapunzel said
Look, the fundamental problem I have with your thesis that he was French masquerading as Greek is that you are projecting Chinese ways of thinking onto Europeans. Chinese people do it all the time.
But if you want some face, let’s just say it’s the great French/Greek Jazz pianist Georges Arvanitas:
http://jazzallthat.blogspot.com/2008/12/georges-arvanitas-1931-2005.html
There. Feel better now, 0112337?
0112337 said
Oh, and another thing…I found this very odd. I am fairly tall, about 1.90 meters. Every French person I came across stared at me. Nobody else from Europe or America ever did this. What is going on? Do French media and schools tell you French people that all Chinese people are short? Now, I use this strange behavior as an initial, educated guess of the Laowai’s origin.
Maybe I should say, “oui, je suis chinoise” next time I see another staring French person, before he opens his mouth?
justrecently said
I have to be an asshole to make you understand
*cough*
If your country has 1 billion poor, uneducated, ignorant people, who went through communism, who grew up in a society where there’s a persistent lack of resource and a persistent excess of fierce competition, where every child knows that society is unequal, unfair, cutthroat, and doesn’t reward hard work…they would behave the same way too.
you westerners are fueling the stimulus that feeds this disease
Shifting ones own responsibilities and projecting ones self-hatred on others is nothing particularly Western. It isn’t something Rwandan either. And contrary to what you said in a previous comment, it isn’t even Russian. They don’t need to “promote culture”, because they are civilized anyway. Or can you imagine China giving up its colonies without a bloodbath of historic dimensions? No bad past is an excuse for bad behavior in the present tense, and most people worldwide understand that. That’s why this one planet is still here after all.
Maybe I should say, “oui, je suis chinoise” next time I see another staring French person, before he opens his mouth?
If you refer to yourself as chinoise, that will mean that you are a woman, Mr Worldly Wise. And I’m pretty sure that such a line will make people stare at you indeed.
0112337 said
hahahaha… sehr gut~! You got me there dear sir. I don’t know any French indeed.
I am black by the way. Black like the Zimbabwe night.
0112337 said
“Shifting ones own responsibilities and projecting ones self-hatred on others is nothing particularly Western.”
Really? What did you people do under Mr. Schicklgruber?
Scoobydo said
“I asked back in fluent English (my oral English is decent from having gone abroad for a few years), whether people are forced to cut lines in France as well. He looked at me, stunned, unable to make out who I was, or how to respond
0112337”
Mmm. I rekon he worked out what you were pretty quickly.
By the way, what is the obsession with French people? Did one of them nick your girlfriend or something?
0112337 said
I am not like most Chinese, perhaps it’s because I studied in America and lived in Europe for a while and have come to understand you people a bit better than other Chinese people.
Personally, I have nothing against the French (although I think they are a bit too volatile sometimes…). That French guy at the 2008 Olympics Tennis Stadium pissed me off because he cut me in the line AND tried to take advantage of me by practicing his miserable Chinese. I don’t know if it was intentional, but he was imitating an ignorant, provincial, Chinese peasant too well for my liking… I didn’t know how to handle it. Realize most Chinese people in China expect you “tall, big nosed, big eyed people from the seas” to speak English not Chinese. Most of us don’t know how to respond to you when you reply in Chinese and show that you understand our culture.
We also realize our flaws. We have a lot of flaws, so much so that you see so many Chinese girls today going after Westerners…it’s a tragedy.
My girlfriend wasn’t “nicked by a French man”. I am not from the villages, so I am under no pressure to keep the lineage pure (breed boys and carry on the family name…etc, etc.) I don’t care if the girl is European, Asian, African, or Indian… as long as she is a kind, gentle, intelligent, dependable, and warm hearted person. I love my European girlfriend as much as this Mr. MyLaowai loves his Mrs. MyLaowai.
Most Chinese guys are angry when they see you date or marry a local girl, but they are usually too cowardly to voice their opposition. They go along with how things are because Chinese society forces people to act like sheep; mediocre, obedient, and without independent thought. It eliminates those with independent thoughts, who seek to stand out, and those who are dumb and fall behind. Perhaps it also has to do with China’s agrarian past and current authoritarian government. I believe men in agrarian societies are usually much more cowardly than men from hunting and gathering societies. Chinese people are much more docile than the Mongols. And Italians during WWII proved themselves to be more cowardly than the Germans. They have been farmers since the Roman times.
On the topic of the French in China, here’s another true story. I was studying by myself at Beijing Normal University a long time ago and I remembered there was this sex crazed French guy (he looked really French and spoke with a French accent), who would say “Ni-hao” to every Chinese girl he sees at secluded places on campus. None of them would speak to him. I felt really bad for the guy. Here was a laowai who came all the way from the other side of the earth, clearly in search of young, local pussy, and nobody would give it to him. He looked really miserable, like one of those French Bohemian artists stuck in existentialism. Perhaps from a lack of sex?
Once we were in the elevator and there were three Chinese girls, me, and him. He tipped his hat and said “Ni hao” three times, but none of the girls would even look at him…then he saw me with my foreign alma mater sweatshirt and wanted to speak English. He was itching to do it, but ultimately didn’t.
Sinosceptic said
“…AND tried to take advantage of me by practicing his miserable Chinese”
Wait, you’re Chinese and in China and you complain about a foreigner using you for language practice?
As TalkTalkChina would put it – the old ‘Language Rapist’ problem. Do you know how fucking annoying it is to live in China for many years and have every Wang, Chang and Lily who are complete and utter strangers to you stopping you in the street or plonking their arse down next to you in a bar unin-fkn-vited to practice their Chinglish on you? Do you? Or how fucking irritating it gets after all these years to hear a high pitched ‘Harro’ every 10 yards or ‘welcome to China’ every time you pass some spotty student? Or how after all these years you still get ‘oh, you can use chopsticks very well’ – well so can a fucking 4 year old brat, what’s so tough about using chopsticks? Every watched even an educated, semi-westernised Chinese person trying to spread butter on a bit bread – fkn hilarious, I could watch bemused for hours.
But, I digress – all I really wanted to say was, take another Gold star and add it to your ‘Big Book of my Asshole life’.
0112337 said
:) Thank you for the candid response. I always wondered how you Westerners thought about China’s bombastic, albeit provincial, attempt at welcoming you ingrates during the 2008 Olympics. Your response matched my prediction.
“Or how after all these years you still get ‘oh, you can use chopsticks very well’ ”
Oh you will be surprised. Many Americans can’t do it no matter how hard they try.
When two people from different cultures meet and there is an assumed mutual ignorance, the assumed way to friendship is to praise the other person’s understanding of one’s own culture. You yokels get happy too when a Chinese person can cite something from your history and culture right?
What should they have say? You are a westerner, here is a knife and fork, now show us how you slaughter?
Scoobydo said
“You yokels get happy too when a Chinese person can cite something from your history and culture right?
0112337”
???
Scoobydo said
“You westerners are no more holier than us.
0112337”
Actually we are.
I can’t adequately express my level of disgust at Chinese people the first time I saw an ambulance with its lights flashing while no one made the slightest attempt to get out of its way.
Are Western people more civilised? Yes we are.
Sorry old bean, but karaoke (a Japanese invention), eating with chopsticks (a Japanese invention) and nose picking (a Chinese invention), doesn’t a superior civilisation make.
Hard cheese old chap.
0112337 said
Europe never had 1 billion people under one government without a good welfare system for an extended period of time. Try having that many people together without a social safety net for 500 years, and I assure you, you Europeans will act the same if not worse. Nobody will care about one another. I would be very impressed if you people can accomplish what we have accomplished.
Civilization? Moral high ground? Rubbish…utter ignorance. Kindness is a luxury of the rich, a result of excess resources and social stability.
justrecently said
If Europe had had Confucius, chances are that they’d have listened to him, and taken a certain degree of welfare – and education – to every level of society.
What is the loss of civilization (to the Russians, to the West, etc.) you are complaining about? That civilization where people up top kept 90plus per cent of the population like animals, and their wives and concubines like fetishes?
You’d better get honest to yourself, 0112337.
Europe never had 1 billion people under one government without a good welfare system for an extended period of time
Very true. And this is something you can’t use as an argument in your favor, and against Europe. You haven’t become more “Russian” or Western – you are in fact reverting to your old roots. Be careful what you ask for next. You’ll complain again for sure, if you get it.
0112337 said
China is going through your British industrialization period right now. Was Britain or America free from corruption, crime, and evil during its early boom years? Don’t confuse culture and history with economics. Today’s China is reverting back to Confucian governing principles while adopting western tools.
but look, you can read English and Chinese right? If you can order stuff online from amazon or ebay, try and get the book called “The Russians” by Hedrick Smith. Read it, and if you were in China during the 70s (maybe?), 80s and 90s, you will see that Chinese society was almost exactly Soviet Russian, whose system fostered corruption, dishonesty, and a lack of law. Imperial Russia had culture. That was the time of Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, and Puskin. Soviet Russia on the other hand had something else. And since you are such an avid China watcher, which I can tell from your writings, check out mop.com and dzh.mop.com. That’s modern China, from genuine, common Chinese people for Chinese people, right now. Forget your lame China daily, Xinhua, CCTV foreign news. That’s all crap tailor made for you Laowais.
Ancient China is more than an emperor having a harem and sapping off the produce of 90% of the people. Clearly you free roaming barbarians will never understand. When we were writing philosophy you fools were swinging from trees. Do you understand the 四書五經? Explaining those to you will take ages.
But I will simplify things by drawing a cultural parallel. One of the West’s greatest philosophers, Socrates, did not espouse democracy. He condemned it. However, the one he supported was a “solar polity” ruled by a philosopher king which was almost exactly what China had, in theory, for more than a thousand years. Reread your “Republic”.
MyLaowai said
Try reading any account from anyone at all from any time period regarding China, and you’ll see that the more things change, the more they stay exactly the fricking same.
Scoobydo said
“Europe never had 1 billion people under one government without a good welfare system for an extended period of time…
…Civilization? Moral high ground? Rubbish…utter ignorance. Kindness is a luxury of the rich, a result of excess resources and social stability.
0112337”
Right, so Chinese people can’t make an effort to get out of the way of an ambulance because China has no social security system, there are 1 Billion Chinese and because getting out of the way of ambulances is a luxury for the rich and requires excess resources and social stability.
Right. Wow, who would have thought that driving your car to the side of the road to let an ambulance pass was so involved?
justrecently said
Was Britain or America free from corruption, crime, and evil during its early boom years?
No country is. But you see, with industrialization in Britain there came the social reformers – and many of them came from the top. Germany saw its first social legislation – covering the entire workforce in the manufacturing industry and in agriculture – even sooner in its development, in the 1880s, within twenty years after the country was founded. China is only fast in applying “Western tools” when it comes to enriching the top, and in arresting social reformers who demand some fair play.
Ancient China is more than an emperor having a harem and sapping off the produce of 90% of the people.
Exactly my point – they sapped off the produce of 90 per cent of the people, but so what. After all, they invented the powder, and foot binding, right?
If you can order stuff online from amazon or ebay, try and get the book called “The Russians” by Hedrick Smith. Read it, and if you were in China during the 70s (maybe?), 80s and 90s, you will see that Chinese society was almost exactly Soviet Russian, whose system fostered corruption, dishonesty, and a lack of law.
I won’t repeat myself, 0112337. You can blame America, Britain, Fiji, Germany, Poland, or Russia for your individual lack of character if you like. That still won’t make you a better person. Russia is Russia, China is China, and 0112337 is 0112337.
Clearly you free roaming barbarians will never understand.
The usual fenqing talk when they are unable to make a point.
All this said, you are of course free to continue to delude yourself, and to yell at people who don’t play along. But I doubt that “helping foreigners to understand China” is your motivation. Your long working hours may be somewhat more close to an explanation.
0112337 said
JR, do you think a blog that criticizes China can generate favorable responses from Chinese people?
justrecently said
No, it usually can’t. But that’s one of this blog’s merits. It shows that those Chinese who react can’t handle it. Not even a banker in real life part of whose job is about Lying, cheating, and backstabbing, who is trying very hard to change China’s flaws, who blames his country’s flaws on a variety of other countries, and blames them in advance for the case of Chinese xenophobia growing further.
French people are volatile, right?
Rapunzel said
He’s not actually blaming foreigners in advance for growing Chinese xenophobia, he’s just stating what the general Chinese reaction will be to criticism. You’ve just got to take into account that most Chinese have had their brains fried with xenophobic propaganda from a tender age so just take it into account and avoid playing into the hands of the propagandists.
Rapunzel said
What about this one then:
http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=703093495
No, I don’t approve, but I don’t get angry about it. If certain Chinese elements want to delude themselves, that’s up to them.
MyLaowai said
Boy howdy! I missed that one! Crikey!
You people really gotta read that.
Alex said
I think 0112337 has some good points here, and it’s too bad nobody really seems to actually read what he writes. This debate between a Chinese (rational) apologist and Western (critical) observers could be more constructive if we all listened to each other.
Anyway, regardless of this, I do enjoy this blog. I’ve read all your entries, and I can tell you that it helped me feel better in my down times…
justrecently said
Alright, Alex. Please tell me how you would have replied to 0112337 right there instead. No guarantee that I’ll follow your advice, but it makes me curious. ;)
Alex said
You sent your comment four minutes after mine, so I couldn’t read it before I wrote my comment.
Of course I hate racism in all its forms, whether it comes from Chinese nationalists or White supremacists, racist ideas such as “Clearly you free roaming barbarians will never understand [Chinese classics]” is unacceptable. But yet, I believe he willingly adopted an agressive stance in self-defence; being the only Chinese commenting on this blog, he might have felt that his best defence was attack…
But that’s not the point. 0112337 is full of bullshit too, especially when he gets racist, but some of his arguments are valid, or at least worth some thought. For instance he said:
“Tibetans really don’t want to be part of China and their history and culture was very much different from ours.”
that shows that he is not your typical brainwashed nationalist. He is a well-read, independent thinker.
I’m a student in China and I have “history” classes here, which I would rather call propaganda classes, where I am “taught” that Genghis Khan was the greatest Chinese emperor, the Chinese never invaded Africa because of higher moral standards than the Europeans, China has 5000 years of history, and my teacher never, ever, pronounces the word “Tibet” without the adjective “Chinese” right before it, even if the discussion has nothing to do with Tibet independence. There is absolutely no possible dialogue with that teacher, she is incapable of critical thinking, incapable of hearing a different point of view. She has a PhD, doctor in Chinese History, but she cannot assess History in a neutral point of view.
This course is just a foretaste of what the Chinese education system looks like. My class is meant for a foreign audience, and yet it is full of crap and lies. Just try to imagine what Chinese students gets served as “history” throughout their high school curriculum, and then you can better understand and appreciate the very few mavericks who come up with new ideas.
I believe 0112337 is one of those, he is open to debate, and we should welcome more Chinese to debate here.
Outsiders see things really differently than natives of any given country. “Laowais” can have valid opinions about China that the Chinese never thought about before, as much as the Chinese can have valid opinions about our societies. This clash of cultures will hopefully be beneficial for everyone in the long run, if we accept to listen to each other.
As to your reply, justrecently , I agree with your points. But I think it is useless to debate about which society is more advanced, and which civilization is older or whose classics are the best.
There is a good book that I would recommend to anyone who believes China or the Western world is better than the rest of the world: Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond. The author explains why China and the Mediterranean developped faster and better than Africa, America and Oceania, (and then why China stopped evolving at some point of their history). It’s all just a matter of geography and biology. We’re all humans and we would be in the same situation than the people we criticize if we were citizen of their country.
justrecently said
Thanks for your advice, Alex. And I basically agree with you about how development is conditioned – but not quite. To simply accept it as a natural rule wouldn’t be fair to those who those who were or are (as we’d say today) “ahead of their own times”. They are humans, too.
Rapunzel said
Don’t be fooled by 0112337’s “Tibetans don’t want to be part of China” ruse. He doesn’t mean it. It’s a trick. He’s a policeman. That’s why he’s been so shifty about his occupation and that’s why he’s busy now. He’s writing reports on each and every laowai on this forum.
0112337 said
This will be my last post. This time for certain, at least for a while. I now have a new project on hand which requires my complete attention. I don’t say this often, but I suppose I should apologize for being an asshole to you guys. I am sorry. I am a banker in real life and people in this industry are mostly if not all assholes. Lying, cheating, and backstabbing is part of the occupation and I come here to vent as a way to balance the despicable things I am forced to do during the day.
I am sorry. You guys are actually quite an interesting group. Although I don’t know who you are, or what you do, it was interesting chatting with you over cyberspace over the past few weeks. China has its flaws but we Chinese of the younger generation are all trying very hard to change them. However, don’t criticize us without reason for that will lead to greater xenophobia which will not be beneficial to you foreigners in the long run. China is a lot deeper than you think.
I wish you guys good luck and great fortune in what you do.
Rapunzel said
China is no way near as deep as you China dreamers make out. The 5,000 years of history is the same 3,000 years that everyone else has, plus some myths and legends that don’t actually count as history added on for good measure. All it amounts to is using different standards for yourselves to make yourselves look better and selective choice of facts, just like you count stuff that has been produced but not sold in your GDP, whereas others don’t.
In the end you only hurt yourselves as you feed your infants on sugar water Because “Chinese traditional sugar has medicinal properties and more nutrition than decadent Western imperialist sugar,” and then wonder why your kids are stunted and calcium-deficient.
China has a history of over confidence its innate, effortless superiority, resulting in such disasters as the Boxer Rebellion.
http://www.sacu.org/historysurvey.html
Scoobydo said
“There is a good book that I would recommend to anyone who believes China or the Western world is better than the rest of the world: Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond.
Alex”
I haven’t read the book (it reads like a PhD thesis apparently). I have watched the 3 part documentary.
His thesis is a good one. However it is limited.
It doesn’t explain how different groups within geographically favoured regions have advanced at different economic rates. If we look at more recent history, does geography explain the rapid industrialisation of Japan in the late 19th and early 20th century but the rest of Asia’s sluggishness?
Does geography explain the relative economic stagnation of the USSR in comparison to Western Europe post WWII?
Some societies just do things differently, which gives them an advantage economically. In the same way as all people are not equal as individuals in their aptitude at achieving tasks, all societies are also not equal at promoting economic growth.
Diamond’s central thesis that there can be no economic growth at all if there is no economic surplus to begin with is true however.
Nonetheless, it doesn’t explain why China declined from economic dominance of the world in 1820 with about 33% of world’s GDP (all GDP figures nominal) to be superseded by the British Empire (both economically and militarily) with 36% of world’s GDP in 1870, an empire which was then itself superseded by the USA with 35% of global GDP in 1945.
Geographical advantage isn’t the reason for those shifts in relative power.
Nor does geography explain why China still has only 7 to 8% of the world’s GDP today even though it has 26% of the world’s population, while Western Europe and the USA have 58% of the world’s GDP with 13% of the world’s population.
China has suffered no historical geographical disadvantage in its hsitory and according to the Chinese version of history, was a fully functioning civilisation when European’s were savages. Why then, with an apparent head start, did it lose its economic dominance and fall behind?
Diamond’s central thesis offers no explanation.
Scoobydo said
“A large, unified political entity like China could spread technology rapidly, but it could also stifle it quickly, as happened with clocks and the Chinese imperial fleet.
http://illahee.org/lectures/archive/jareddiamondlecture
Jared Diamond”
The stifling of technology had nothing to do with geographical advantage (or lack thereof) and everything to do with the way the Chinese organised themself as a group.
While out populating everyone else with a strong central state served to dominate and subjugate non Han peoples and allowed the Han to take over their territories with weight of numbers, that Han strength appears to have stifled the spread of new technology.
Still, the Chinese don’t have a terribly impressive record when it comes to inventing new technology.
Diamond is also quite likely historically incorrect when he attributes European technological development on inter state competition.
Common sense would suggest that wars are major contributors to rapid technological development. Apparently however, in the broad sweep of things, new technology is utilised in wartime rather than developed because of it.
Perhaps technological advancement has more to do with how people see the future?
The Chinese have traditionally favoured an unchanging society which hampered change.
Again nothing to do with war or geography. Everything to do with the Chinese themselves.
Sascha said
I think diamond wrote his book and developed his thesis as an attack on racism as the underlying cause of a society’s success or failure. in your short disagreement, you basically resurrect race as a factor. for some things, diamond’s thesis explains processes very well, such as the lack of domesticated (and -able) animals in sub-saharan Africa, Australia, and the Americas that made conquering them much easier for a Europe and Middle East with horses, cows, pigs etc. China had all of these animals as well plus all of the grains and fruits etc that helped build massive socieities in Asia and Europe.
Using those tools, China and India rose to the very top of the world’s food chain, but were dramatically thrown off by, basically, England in the late 19th century. Why?
Here race plays a role perhaps. Or perhaps a “natural” rise and fall that seems to be the pattern for societies throughout history, which the Chinese talk about in the book The Three Kingdoms (“societies long united must split, long split must unite”).
The rise of England was due almost entirely to warfare. Victories over France in Canada, the Caribbean, India and Europe (see the book 1759) removed their strongest competitor in Europe and these wars helped England develop the tools necessary to quickly defeat nations (India and China) which were actually much more advanced as a whole, but lacking in a few vital tools such as tactics with cavalry and cannon, which Europeans learned from Sweden and France first on the battlefield. So Diamond’s idea that a pluralistic society (Europe) can out-tech a centralized society (China) might be as true if not more so than your race-based argument.
As in: a “split” society that arose out of the long united Roman Empire was able to contend with itself, grow apart, compete and develop tech (especially war tech) which helped them defeat weaker nations (Africa), nations united but lacking in geographic/biological advantages (Americas), and long united nations with all of the resources necessary (China).
Now India presents an issue because they were fractured, but old and geographically well-endowed …
hmmm. getting too deep for me here. peace.
Scoobydo said
“I think diamond wrote his book and developed his thesis as an attack on racism as the underlying cause of a society’s success or failure. in your short disagreement, you basically resurrect race as a factor.”
An acknowledgement of differences in behaviour between races doesn’t amount to racism of course.
Interestingly, the Chinese have no problem at all in defining themself as being racially distinct and racially superior, in their opinion, to other races. Diamond reflects a peculiarly post WWII Western liberal perspective on races.
Different societies and cultures do have different behavioural mores. To assert that such cultural traits have no effect on the economic progress of a culture and how it interacts with other cultures seems to be a concept that flies in the face of all of the evidence.
Sometimes I fear that liberalism doesn’t let the facts get in the way of its dogma.
“The rise of England was due almost entirely to warfare.”
It is true that the West’s dominance turned on its ability to kill its enemies more effectively than its enemies could kill them. China however was still the big dog on the block in 1820 when it was economically dominant – a period after the Napoleonic wars and the substantial conquering of the Jewel in the Crown of the British Empire – India.
What gave the UK economic dominance (and helped its military dominance) was the Industrial revolution. A thing that the British had first and that China showed no interest in.
“So Diamond’s idea that a pluralistic society (Europe) can out-tech a centralized society (China) might be as true if not more so than your race-based argument.”
Which has nothing to do with geographical advantage which was Diamond’s main vehicle to prove that we are, at heart, all warm fuzzy Western liberals, even if the rest of the world doesn’t realise it :)
In other words, China having a strong centralised state and Europe having a number of competing states, neither proves nor disproves Diamond’s thesis. Diamond is merely trying to tie up some rather substantial loose ends which encompass social, political, economic and military history which don’t even fit into his main thesis – that its all about geography, not race!
I think Diamond was onto something with his initial geographical advantages concept. After that however, he is out of his depth.
His fields of interest are
Physiology
Biophysics
Ornithology
Environmentalism
Ecology
Geography
Evolutionary Biology
Anthropology
In other words, in terms of economic and military history and history in general, he is a mere lay man.
Cheers
What Helps – or Hurts – Development? « Justrecently's Weblog said
[…] is how Alex, a Canadian blogger in China, roughly sees the reasons accelerations and slowdowns in regional development. He recommends Jared Diamond’s Guns, Germs and Steel as a more comprehensive […]