June 4th? POTIF!
Posted by MyLaowai on Friday, June 4, 2010
It’s June 4th. But no one actually seems to either know what that means, or care if they do.
At least it’s also a Friday.
Wo Shi Laowai – Wo Pa Shui
This Blog was Invented in Xi'an 5,000 Years Ago
China Blog Awards
EFF.org
From The Peanut Gallery…
Blogged.com Says
Copyright Notice
Licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution - No Derivative Works 3.0 License
Attention: Warning!
- .
Some Nice Buttons
Wo Shi Laowai - Wo Pa Shui 
Cap'n Rad said
You kidding me? Everyone knows what today is.
June 4th 1989: According to the official records of the CCP, on this day the sun was shining, so Deng Xiaoping decided to have a nice picnic with his friends out in the countryside. On the way home, he saw a cute kid selling homemade lemonade by the roadside, so he bought six glasses for only one yuan each, and then gave the kid a shiny button to take home.
(I do miss sinocidal!)
Da Ge Da said
Eh?? Expo???
Chinese Netizen said
Isn’t it a date that free Chinese in Hong Kong and Taiwan can gather and civilly discuss an historical event in China that mainland Chinese are totally unaware of or blissfully ignore because it’s “irrelevant to their economic development”?
0112337 said
Dear Foreign Netizen,
Please do not make assertions or predictions with only limited knowledge.
But on the other hand, if the Chinese don’t care, why do YOU care? Why is it that pragmatic westerners become ideological, nonsensical, and delusional when they land in China? I refuse to believe it is the culture shock. Seriously, what is going on?
MyLaowai said
Over a hundred thousand in Hong Kong yesterday holding a candlelit vigil suggests to me that Chinese Netizen might have a point.
Besides, the fact that even the hated laowai care more about China and the Chinese than the Chinese do about themselves should not come as a surprise. It is a cultural thing, like it or not.
Face it, we’re just better human beings.
Scoobydo said
“Please do not make assertions or predictions with only limited knowledge.”
We watched it live on the TV you clown. As did everyone in HK and in Guangdong who were watching HK TV at the time.
You were probably 6 or 7?
Do us a favour and don’t try to claim some sort of special knowledge about things you know little about. I know it is difficult being Chinese to not immediately assume that you are the clever one, but give it a try.
More to the point, running students over with Armoured Personnel Carriers, while tempting to anyone who has ever taught Chinese students, does tend to paint the CPC in a poor light.
It doesn’t say much about you either to treat it so lightly, while pretending you have some sort of special insight into the matter that you quite clearly don’t.
You were too young to remember it first time around and too afraid nowadays to discuss it as anything other than as a CPC apologist.
0112337 said
Dear Scooby,
I was slightly older than 7 back then but let me tell you a true story about what happened at Tiananmen in ’89. My uncle, who was about my age now, was working at the Bank of China as a wealth management associate. The bank occupied a bell-tower near the train station that overlooked the central square.
He, being the typical 80’s Beijinger; bold, swaggering, lawless, fearless, and completely clueless, jumped at the news of possible government crackdown on the student demonstration. He called his buddies up to organize a hors d’oeuvres party with imported French cheese and Remy Martins up at the bell tower on the evening of June 4th, 1989. My grandmother knew better (if the news people got a picture of my uncle’s face during those days, he would be a marked man), and told him that if he were to step outside the door that afternoon, he should never come back again. She was ready to disown him.
But he slipped out anyway, without my grandmother knowing, and along with his four other banker buddies, they went up to the bell tower to enjoy the view. He said it was mighty fine all throughout the early evening. The students were doing their thing down there and the policemen and few soldiers were standing by.
Then around midnight, the tanks rolled in. Just as my uncle was shouting in excitement from the top of the tower, the machine gunners on the T-72s opened fire on the high points. The tower was riddled with bullets. All the windows were shattered, and if my uncle didn’t duck (and tell his buddies to duck), they would have all died. My uncle was a tank soldier during the cultural revolution so he knew. He told his buddies to stay flat on the ground and to stay away from the windows. All through the night there was shouting, firing, and screaming down on the square.
They didn’t dare move till the next morning, when my uncle got the courage to peep from one of the shattered windows. There were many corpses on the ground and many wounded it appeared the soldiers were loading the bodies on to a truck.
0112337 said
And to answer you, I DID participate in this event, unfortunately, and I remember clearly. My mother was a lecturer in Beijing University Medical School at that time. She made me carry water to the protesting students. It was hard work…
And I remember seeing the corpse of a student who was crushed by an army truck. Her brains were all over the road. It looked like soft tofu…
And the students didn’t bathe or wash while they were camping out at Tiananmen. The place smelled like the Beijing Zoo. No joke.
Chinese Netizen said
@MyLaowai: They must have been 100k+ gweilos in the HK crowd since surely Chinese people just believe that about a dozen were killed and were done so by their own hands through clumsy bicycle riding and falling off high buildings.
@Mr numerology: don’t ever assume to make insinuations about someone’s presumptions and assertions, as that has nothing to do with predictions or assertions. Twat.
0112337 said
The students effectively had the city under siege. Nothing could come in, and keep in mind that Beijing is a city that is situated within a valley, surrounded by mountains. It needs resources brought from outside in order to function. families with young children scrambled and fought tooth and nail for the bits of powdered milk that was still selling in the stores. Students beat policemen, destroyed government buildings, blockaded roads…using people and flat wooden barge tricycles, and even harassed PLA soldiers. They even lynched one, and you can see pictures of this online. If the government didn’t do something it might very well have developed into anarchy…and maybe even disintegration, Russian style (to the absolute joy of you westerners, no doubt. Your ultimate agenda of spreading chaos(or *ehem* democracy) to the Middle Kingdom would have succeeded).
The ’89 protest at Tiananmen was not a simple, pro-western demonstration like you want to believe. It was controlled by a few key people who were operating behind the scenes for reasons unknown (They are all living in America now). Although the government was highly corrupt and unpopular at the time, it knew, and the people knew, that it must exist. The CCP was not well liked, but it worked and Chinese people will not fight for…really anything…if they can just get enough to eat, find a place to live, and carry on a vague representation of a normal life.
The leaders knew there would be total anarchy if the students were not crushed. Think about it. If a parent can’t even discipline his own kid through a good, honest, smack down, how can it prevent its neighbors from taking advantage of him? What’s preventing you fools from sailing over and threatening China with a few sanctions or two like you are doing to North Korea right now?
Anarchy would be very, very bad for everyone in the end regardless if the CCP ruled or not. If the CCP fell, each province would raise a flag and declare nationhood. The millions of martyrs who fought so hard to end the civil war would have died for nothing.
Charlie_sierra said
Wow.
I don’t agree with your viewpoint at all. But I do admire your experience and your narrative. I feel that I learned something.
That definitely does not belong here. Go write that someplace serious and link to it here. Then let the rest of us get on to more Da Shan jokes.
justrecently said
If the CCP fell, each province would raise a flag and declare nationhood. The millions of martyrs who fought so hard to end the civil war would have died for nothing.
Is that so? And if it is, what should be wrong with every province hosting its own flag?
0112337 said
So German JR, so absolutely, incredibly German….
And I thought you knew how to read Chinese.
justrecently said
That’s not German, that’s logical. Your comment suggests that you can’t find a valid reply.
0112337 said
You are right JR, it’s so logical, that’s why I say it is so culturally German.
Now what does your knowledge of Chinese culture and history tell you about the CHINESE PERCEPTION of such a proposal?
Remember what I said? You can read all about another culture, memorize all the facts about that culture, but you will still not understand it. That’s because you don’t know how the people from that culture interpret those facts themselves. Understanding how those people interpret those facts will make you understand a people far better than simply knowing the facts about them.
Chinese people are rational but we are an agrarian people at heart, so we are gregarious, unlike you Germans, hunters and gatherers who have been independent and free roaming for thousands of years.
Bismarck tried very hard to get you people to stay together, don’t you think you should follow his advice and abandon such thoughts?
justrecently said
If the Chinese people want to remain one country, they will keep their provinces from declaring a nationhood of their own.
And if they want their respective provinces to declare nationhood, they will do so, either soon, or eventually – no matter what their perception of my views (which “proposal” of mine are you referring to?) is.
Bismarck didn’t bind this country together. He led a war against France to unite my country – if he had had to lead war against his own people, he would have failed.
“You don’t understand” is a lame argument. I see it coming up every time the actual facts appear to be unpleasant – but that doesn’t change the facts.
MyLaowai said
Let’s face it: China is not and never has been “one country”. Throughout history it’s been a motley assortment of states that each tried to do their own thing. It’s only since the Han got going that they’ve all been forced together into one country. Or cuntry, if you prefer (which I do).
Hitler tried that with Europe, and Stalin & Co tried that with the USSR. It only works for just as long as the military and secret police keep vigilant, because forcing folks to belong to a group with which they have no affinity seldom works – it’s just not natural.
Scoobydo said
“The ’89 protest at Tiananmen was not a simple, pro-western demonstration like you want to believe.”
Who said it was? It was a demonstration against CPC corruption (from workers and students) and a grasp for a bigger slice of the economic pie by the students. Most people in Tiananmen Square didn’t even understand what democracy was. How could they after a CPC sanctioned education?
“Students effectively had the city under siege. Nothing could come in…”
I have watched film where normal residents of Beijing stopped the army moving into the centre of the city by mobbing the soldiers’ vehicles and asking them who the Peoples’ Liberation Army were supposed to protect.
It would appear that a large proportion of the population of Beijing and of China were behind the demonstration. In fact a lot of workers were in Tiananmen Square.
Consequently it is a bit misleading to represent Tiananmen Square as a student only demonstration, which you have done for whatever reason. I’m surprised that someone who was there represents it as such.
Of course as soon as the bullets started flying, the whole population of China then switched sides back to the CPC.
What sickened me however was that when parents went into the square the next day, after the killing began, demanding to know where their missing kids were, they were just shot down by the PLA. Even an ambulance that tried to save some of them got riddled with PLA bullets with everyone aboard killed.
I can’t quite work out why those parents needed to be killed by the PLA to maintain the CPC in power and to maintain China as a whole political entity.
After watching that, I had to wonder if the soldiers were drugged. There have been stories to that effect but I don’t know if there is any truth in them.
Chinese Netizen said
“I can’t quite work out why those parents needed to be killed by the PLA to maintain the CPC in power and to maintain China as a whole political entity.”
Quite easy, actually…we Chinese are great at lording power, however small, over whoever will cower under the perception that someone has power over them. Look at the mighty Cheng guan in cities throughout China, look at measly 600 kuai/month security guards and the way they behave to street sweepers.
The PLA is rolling in money and rich beyond dreams. Look at the Poly Group and the cars PLA drive around in. They get guaranteed trickle down economic favor from the CCP and in turn defend the golden goose that keeps them fat.
It’s a cycle of PLA keeping CCP rich…CCP keeping top leadership children in power and rich…leadership keeping PLA rich. It all makes sense.
hahahahahah
LOL LOL
hee hee
0112337 said
“It would appear that a large proportion of the population of Beijing and of China were behind the demonstration. In fact a lot of workers were in Tiananmen Square.”
Yes, you are right. Thank you for mentioning this and pardon me for the mistake. The city was under seige by workers, students, and some other random people. Also, I would like to point out, the Bank of China owned a CLOCK TOWER near the square not a bell tower. My mistake. Sorry.
Also, too many self-righteous western pricks have been talking to me about this that I feel I must give a parallel analogy for you people to understand why;
1. Chinese people don’t like to talk about this event.
2. Chinese people are at best neutral on this issue.
——————————————————-
Explanations.
1. Imagine you have a son, who is stupid and bold, who, without knowing the family finances, feels that his father is not giving him enough allowance to buy the stuff he wants. He steals from his father’s wallet and even tries to force his father at knife point to hand over the money. His father wins, beats him, and forces him to stay inside.
Now, if you were the father, and you are rational, would you tell your neighbors about this? If your neighbors peek from your window to enjoy the show and demands that you tell them all about what happened, would you naturally want to tell them? If they FORCE you to tell them, and actually sides with your son and claims that you are not giving your child his due…that you are violating his human rights…by beating him…what would you think?
2. Chinese people know that the 80s was a crazy era of lawlessness and jaded contempt. Although the government was at fault for being corrupt and squashing the protests with force, every Chinese (except the victims’ families) will acknowledge that any nation will do what the CPC did in order to maintain order.
Scoobydo said
“Chinese people know that the 80s was a crazy era of lawlessness and jaded contempt. Although the government was at fault for being corrupt and squashing the protests with force”
China still is and the CPC has never changed.
So you seriously expect people to see the June the 6th demonstrations as being akin to stealing from your father and then trying to force your father to hand over more money at knife point?
Wow. Just wow.
It was the CPC stealing money from the people that got people’s backs up and the CPC didn’t use a knife to steal more money from the people – they used the PLA with tanks to do so.
I think you have things a little back to front in your mind.
Its almost as if you have been living in a one party dictatorship that controls the media all of your life.
Look. With Capitalism, the masses know they are getting exploited by the rich.
With Communism, the leaders (cough, cough, the rich) teach the masses that they should be grateful to the ‘leaders’ for all they have been so graciously given by the CPC.
Some of the younger masses even believe it.
Scoobydo said
“Students beat policemen, destroyed government buildings, blockaded roads…using people and flat wooden barge tricycles, and even harassed PLA soldiers. They even lynched one.”
Mmmm. This almost sounds like CPC propoganda.
Still, beating policeman is a favourite Chinese past-time. The lynching of a PLA soldier is news to me however.
I don’t remember any reports of policeman being beaten or PLA soldiers getting lynched at the time. Nor do I remember any reports of government buildings being burnt down. In view of the fact that students were essentially after a bit more of the economic pie, it seems a bit OTT.
Still, both you and your uncle were there so I will take your word for it.
Strangely, anyone who has followed your postings over a period of months will ponder the fact that you don’t always write like a man in his 40s. More like a man in his early 20s with fire in his belly.
I salute your ability to rant and rave (at times) like a man 20 years younger than you really are. In fact your whole posting style is a bit Jekyll & Hyde if the truth be told.
0112337 said
“Mmmm. This almost sounds like CPC propoganda.”
How about this…”the poor, lost youth were simply venting anger at perceived social immobility, rigid, intangible bureaucracy, and corruption. That’s why they demonstrated, and the Communist Party cut them down ruthlessly.”
Does that sound better to your tastes? Something more familiar, perhaps from BBC, CNN,…the absolute, only truth in the world? All else must be CPC propaganda…including Al-Jazeera.
“Still, beating policeman is a favourite Chinese past-time.”
YES. It surely was, during the 80’s and early 90s.
“The lynching of a PLA soldier is news to me however.”
BBC probably didn’t report it, so I guess it must be CPC propaganda. The propaganda also said that was the reason why the army became so infuriated that it was willing to shoot at parents trying to claim their dead kids.
The propaganda specifically mentioned that the kids used molotov cocktails, which actually blew up a PLA tank, killing all crew inside. This also caused the soldiers to view them as enemy combatants rather than demonstrators.
“I don’t remember any reports of policeman being beaten or PLA soldiers getting lynched at the time. Nor do I remember any reports of government buildings being burnt down.”
The BBC and western media reporters must know more about the event than the Chinese…for sure. Hands down. I must be wrong.
“Strangely, anyone who has followed your postings over a period of months will ponder the fact that you don’t always write like a man in his 40s. More like a man in his early 20s with fire in his belly.”
2010 – 1989 = 21.
“I was slightly older than 7 back then”
=> 21 + (7+x); x = [1,5]
=> 0112337’s age = [29, 33]
Reading comprehension should have been taught in 6th grade in your nation?
Scoobydo said
“I was slightly older than 7 back then.
Reading comprehension should have been taught in 6th grade in your nation?”
I thought you were being sarcastic. You mean you are telling us all about your experience of Tiananmen square as a 7 year old?
0112337 said
Lets try this again Scooby, if you get it right, I will give you a BIG, RED, cyber APPLE.
“I was SLIGHTLY older than 7 back then.”
{x l x E [1,5] }
7 + x = ?
Scoobydo said
Sorry, I meant to say, a little older than 7.
By the way, do you always attempt to communicate with people using maths gibberish?
{x l x E [1,5] }
Can’t you just try and speak English and not maths?
Thanks very much.
MyLaowai said
Ah, Jew-onna-Stick! It’s back to bleedin’ maths again. What is it with this guy and equations?
Scoobydo said
“It was controlled by a few key people who were operating behind the scenes for reasons unknown (They are all living in America now).”
Apart from the ones who got shot.
0112337 said
And this is an open question to any foreigners out there, from a curious Han Chinese person (me),
Some of you might have lived in China for some time. Do you, sincerely, feel that you are Chinese?
Because some of you post opinions here as if you are, even though, of course, we all know you were from somewhere else.
————————————————————
Like I said, the only real way for Han Chinese people to acknowledge that you are Chinese is if you adopt Confucian ways, and speak Chinese. We don’t really care if you look different, but as long as you hold these views…spreading chaos/democracy, bent on independently roaming about, refusing to abide by the concept of the state, and respecting your elders and caring for the young, caring for your parents (especially), you will never be Chinese.
I always get a kick out of the fact that most westerners in China knows more about ancient Chinese culture and history than the average Chinese person, but none of them actually understand how to effectively interact with modern Chinese people.
What you learned is already in our genes, but it is not in yours, so you don’t understand us.
MyLaowai said
Don’t kid yourself, pnumbers, I know precisely how to effectively interact with modern Chinese people. It’s an instruction, followed immediately by a swift size twelve up the stove pipe if the coolie hasn’t leapt up in obedience by the time the toe leather arrives.
You know, and I know, that this is the only way to effectively interact with this lot.
Scoobydo said
Aren’t Chinese ideas of how foreigners should interact with Chinese people usually made up on the spot to suit the Chinese?
Its intersting that overseas Chinese boy recons we don’t understand.
We understand how it works only too well.
Heads you win. Tails we lose.
0112337 said
You know, and I know, Mr. Mylaowai, that you know I know, that you come here to sulk precisely because you DON’T understand Chinese people despite the many years (you claim) that you spent in China, and the fact that you claim you have a Chinese wife.
Your Chinese workers cheat you PRECISELY because you don’t understand them and you haven’t managed them well. Now, without doubting your intelligence and your drive, the only logical conclusion is that you haven’t fully grasped the culture there yet.
Be like Zhu Ge Liang, my foreign China expert, command the winds and the rains, when you have truly understood the Chinese people, you wouldn’t need to sulk here anymore.
Good Luck!
justrecently said
Your Chinese workers cheat you PRECISELY because you don’t understand them …
Not that I’d believe for a moment that this will sink in with you, 0112337, but just for the record:
if you try to justify some of your compatriots’ misdemeanor with the behavior of those they cheat on, I still can’t judge if the people they cheated on have done anything wrong. All I can tell is you are adding to the misdemeanor by finding lame excuses for it.
0112337 said
“Its intersting that overseas Chinese boy recons we don’t understand.”
Huh? I surely don’t understand YOU Scooby.
Modern Chinese people are more or less stereotypical “homines economici”, Very rational, very self-maximizing, somewhat to very libertarian.
Western economists who read Confucius and understand the Confucian classics are the real modern China experts. Ask them for advice. They understand how modern Chinese people think perfectly.
How Chinese people manifest this “homo economicus” personality differs by region. Northerners are more aggressive, ruthless, and independent while southerners are more gregarious, calculating, and outwardly benign.
In general, modern Chinese people are more ambitious and aggressive than westerners.
Scoobydo said
“the only real way for Han Chinese people to acknowledge that you are Chinese is if you adopt Confucian ways, and speak Chinese. We don’t really care if you look different…”
You have some funny ideas at times. The Chinese don’t even really like the people from the next province and consider them outsiders to be ripped off.
Big nose speaking Chinese? He wouldn’t be considered Chinese (an insider if you will) in a million years.
0112337 said
Yeah Scooby, when an European or American peasant enters a large European or American city, where the competition is fiercer and people are forced to be more rational and self-maximizing, the city dwellers usually rips off the bumpkin or makes fun of him. But does that mean they hate the RACE of village peasants? Do they rip him off and hate him BECAUSE he has a big nose or funny looking ears? Doesn’t these thoughts show inward insecurity and weakness on the part of the peasant in itself?
The Chinese that ripped you off did so because he wants to survive and he saw you as an easy target for quick gains. He didn’t rip you off because you are a westerner, because you looked different, or because you held different views. These insecure beliefs are western, not Chinese.
The world is competitive, and I am afraid people usually act mean for limited resources. China is not happy, safe, Nordic la-la land, where the police use poodles for guard dogs.
When you learn to rip off that guy first before he rips you off, nobody in that Chinese city will consider you an outsider.
That’s just the way it is, and it will always be this way as long as there are lots and lots of people.
Scoobydo said
“You come here to sulk precisely because you DON’T understand Chinese people despite the many years (you claim) that you spent in China”
The old, we are too complex to understand chestnut.
Look, Chinese people are some of the simplest people in the world to understand.
Why wouldn’t they be.
After the CPC and communism was finished with them, they weren’t exactly the most sophisticated people in the world.
0112337 said
Western culture is in many ways the direct opposite of Chinese culture, for example, Confucius made men into women, and Chinese culture is in general, feminine, through the western lens.
Western culture, despite all its attempts at refinement, through finance, trade, etc, etc, still holds steadfastly to male chauvinism. The idea of the “man” should be a strong, dominant, and assertive one, rather than a feminine, scholarly, poet…
But then again, you never know…you people have almost gotten there…McDonalds is selling salads now…and westerners have adopted low-calorie diets that is very similar to Chinese dishes…
The global economy is bringing the world together. It is forcing both cultures to find ways to interact with each other.
We are living in interesting times people…
Scoobydo said
“The BBC and western media reporters must know more about the event than the Chinese…for sure. Hands down. I must be wrong”
Actually they probably did – its called a press that isn’t in the CPC’s pocket. Certainly they had a better idea than you did as a 7 year old.
As it stands, your main thrust is that the CPC was 100% justified in killing students in Tiananmen Square. The workers were omitted from your analysis altogether. That is more understandable now that I know how old you were at the time but it does reflect badly on the accuracy of your assertions.
To characterise the whole June the 4th episode as being one solely involving students and ignoring the mass backing from Chinese workers both morally and physically misrepresents the whole nature of the 1989 protests.
Scoobydo said
“When an European or American peasant enters a large European or American city, where the competition is fiercer and people are forced to be more rational and self-maximizing, the city dwellers usually rips off the bumpkin or makes fun of him.”
You mean where there is no real rule of law (unless you are in the CPC and rich)?
What is all this Western bumpkin and Chinese city dweller stuff? Its the Chinese who were the peasants who moved to the city in the last generation.
Actually, most Chinese are still walking around barefoot in the countryside, picking their noses and thinking how clever they are. Such behaviour can also be seen among the ‘sophisticated’ Chinese city dwellers.
0112337 said
You didn’t get the analogy, never mind. Forget the Chinese and Western descriptive adjectives. I was trying to say city dwellers rip off bumpkins not because the bumpkin looks different but because he is simple-minded and an easy target for quick gains.
Scoobydo said
I did get it.
The problem is that Westerners are intially at a disadvantage because the court system doesn’t work in China.
Little things like Chinese people not honoring contracts and committing fraud and getting away with it scot free.
Oh, I do agree with you that Chinese people don’t rip Westerners off because they are Western. They rip each other off just as rapidly.
0112337 said
“The problem is that Westerners are intially at a disadvantage because the court system doesn’t work in China.
Little things like Chinese people not honoring contracts and committing fraud and getting away with it scot free.”
Try being a Chinese businessman in the U.S. Same shit, but from different assholes.
Scoobydo said
“Try being a Chinese businessman in the U.S. Same shit, but from different assholes.”
No, to compare the US legal system and the Chinese legal system and try to assert they are the same is disingenuous.
US judges don’t require a bribe from both parties before issuing a judgement.
Besides, American judges require…drum roll…a legal education whereas Chinese judges are often ex-PLA personnel with no legal education at all.
It kind of speaks for itself.
0112337 said
This is actually quite irrelevant to my objective here, but for the sake of arguing…
“US judges don’t require a bribe from both parties before issuing a judgement.”
No, but your lawyer does (sarcasm), if you don’t have money to wage a legal battle, you can’t win in a U.S. court. The U.S. legal system is one of the most sophisticated in the world, with many, many potholes for the ill-advised to fall through.
Same shit…different assholes.
“Besides, American judges require…drum roll…a legal education whereas Chinese judges are often ex-PLA personnel with no legal education at all.”
From your earlier writings, I assume you are British or Australian, therefore I assume you are unfamiliar with how U.S. legal education works. I have a few friends who are lawyers and they tell me that law schools in the States do not teach you legal theory as much as analytical skills from looking at actual cases. The reason being U.S. law schools believe the law is constantly changing according to the times. Rigid textbook theories will not prepare students for the future.
For the majority of their law school career, students learn to analyze cases and case decisions. After doing this for three years, and demonstrating proficiency, they walk out with a J.D. degree.
Provincial Chinese judges go through this process by observing actual cases on the job, and by learning from senior judges who act as their mentors. The learning process is quite similar.
Although I do have to say, despite all efforts, my information is that the Chinese legal system is still at the developing stage.
Moderately Prosperous Society said
Perhaps some of the fenqing writing so eloquently above along the “it was all for stability” lines can share their opinion on the following.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article7144788.ece
“A recent survey by officially sponsored academics claimed that 91% of Chinese citizens worth more than £10m — or 2,932 out of 3,220 people — were the children of senior officials.”
A little more 为人民服务 and a little less 为人民币服务 might be in order don’t you think.
0112337 said
“A little more 为人民服务 and a little less 为人民币服务 might be in order don’t you think.”
You are absolutely right, 小康, that’s where you westerners come in. Chinese people don’t eat as much as you, that’s why they don’t have as much energy as you.
But since you ate so much that you got the energy to write books about all of this, why don’t you 为人民服务 a bit more eh?
How about donating all your publishing income to a Chinese orphanage?
MyLaowai said
Here’s a thought:
Instead of always expecting the West to feed you and take care of you and support you and pay for your development and medical care etc etc etc ad infinitum… Why don’t a few Chinese people donate to a Chinese orphanage once in a blue fucking moon? Even better, why don’t a few Chinese people actually take care of their girl-babies instead of dumping them in an orphanage (or a river) or selling them into slavery as is the norm?
Then again, it’s easier to just blame the West for not doing enough to help. As usual.
You whining ingrate.
0112337 said
I thought, of all people, Mr. Mylaowai, the foreign China expert extraordinaire, his supreme successfulness, would understand this blatantly obvious cultural sarcasm. Read it again.
And the funny thing is, after reading many of the comments here, is that you westerners living in China actually do think you are holier, better people…
And the even funnier thing is, the Chinese people living there, actually believe it too.
Come work in finance in the U.S., Mr. Mylaowai, you will see how holy westerners are.
justrecently said
And the funny thing is, after reading many of the comments here, is that you westerners living in China actually do think you are holier, better people…
If you didn’t know that westerners are usually holier, you wouldn’t be so upset, 0112337.
Some Chinese believe it and live with it, and some believe it and get mad.
0112337 said
No, I am not upset JR, I am disgusted by the high level of hypocrisy here.
justrecently said
No, I am not upset JR, I am disgusted by the high level of hypocrisy here.
Mhm. So that’s why you like it here?
0112337 said
“Mhm. So that’s why you like it here?”
Yes, as a place to spew trash against hypocrites and also to relieve the guilt I feel for destroying other westerners…
But then again…
Why are YOU trolling this site? Do you know this Mr. Mylaowai? Are you two buddies? Is he paying you?
Most of his other trolls on here are either British or Australian, which is understandable given that he stated he was Australian. But why are you trolling here?
justrecently said
I’m not trolling. I’m making meaningful contributions. It doesn’t matter if there’s a fenqing once in a while who won’t benefit from them.
0112337 said
JR, you are a man right?
Some of your comments make me think you are perhaps a woman. If you are, please accept my apologies for being rude.
The same goes to any female readers and/or female posters on here.
justrecently said
I’m not sure what to make of your comment, 0112337. Why should a woman feel offended by what you write? Why should anyone feel offended?
offewsZidwive said
Most of them are insecure since they feel they are less hot than when they were single. Do women really like men’s cologne, though? Cell phone or paper and pen Show More This is the first step that you need to take and what you need to do is to change your entire mental disposition on yourself. “Let’s pull your pants up a little bit. keylogger for mac Plus, it is an interesting topic women love talking about relationships. Don’t forget they are very spiritual. How to recognize an Aries? ” so join them and wander in Oslo’s parks for free.
0112337 said
And all your savings too…
Then the answer to your question will seem as clear as day.
Trust me.
Scoobydo said
Always looking for a free lunch.
“You owe me”
Typical Chinese mindset.
0112337 said
On a lighter note, who beat France 1-0 in the World Cup Pre-game?
Hahahaha~! FUCK LES BLEUS! FUCK ARSENAL! BITCHES ARE GOING DOWN!
I would laugh so hard if France ends up last in the group….
hahahahahahahahaha……
0112337 said
Mexico-France (2-0)
Hahahaha! FUCK LES-BLEUS. THEY BASICALLY HANDED THOSE TO THE MEXICANS.
Penalty Box Foul? RETARDS. HAHAHAHA… FUCK FRANCE.
Keep it up, France, you are well on your way to be the last in the group….
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA…….
Scoobydo said
“Provincial Chinese judges go through this process by observing actual cases on the job, and by learning from senior judges who act as their mentors. The learning process is quite similar.”
So you concede the point that Chinese judges often have no legal education?
They merely watch a few cases (under an ‘expert’ mentor) and then set up shop and let the red envelopes roll in.
American judges on the other hand have to go to law school, get a law degree, qualify as a lawyer at the bar and then work as a lawyer for years and then perhaps be eventually picked as a judge.
Chinese judges on the other hand quite possibly roll in from the PLA with no formal legal education (or any education at all beyond middle school), watch a few cases and then start to accept bribes, sorry try cases.
Don’t get me wrong, some Chinese judges do have a legal education but the real kicker is the corruption. It is endemic in Chinese court cases.
You are correct however that American legal system is expensive if you wish to pursue a case for breach of contract. Being expensive doesn’t equate to corruption however, contrary to your assertion.
Court work in China isn’t cheap in either though. The court fees aren’t so expensive but by the time you have paid your lawyer and greased palms along the way, it costs a lot of money as well.
By the way, you clearly missunderstand what goes on at law school. In Western law schools, you learn law and you also learn how to research law due to its ever changing nature.
0112337 said
“So you concede the point that Chinese judges often have no legal education?”
I am not a lawyer, nor have I practiced law in China, so I am not an authority on this.
“They merely watch a few cases (under an ‘expert’ mentor) and then set up shop and let the red envelopes roll in.”
This is exactly what happened in America in the 20s.
“American judges on the other hand have to go to law school, get a law degree, qualify as a lawyer at the bar and then work as a lawyer for years and then perhaps be eventually picked as a judge.”
This is the norm now, but not when the American legal system was developing.
“Chinese judges on the other hand quite possibly roll in from the PLA with no formal legal education (or any education at all beyond middle school), watch a few cases and then start to accept bribes, sorry try cases.”
Yes, this is perhaps true in remote provinces where most people just had running water and electricity.
“Don’t get me wrong, some Chinese judges do have a legal education but the real kicker is the corruption. It is endemic in Chinese court cases.
You are correct however that American legal system is expensive if you wish to pursue a case for breach of contract. Being expensive doesn’t equate to corruption however, contrary to your assertion.”
Are you a businessman or are you an ideologue? Are you trying to lead a crusade to change the system or make money?
Fool, you and I both know the reason you chose to be there is because you know China is at a developing stage where there are loopholes and un-met demand, and that you perceive there is potential to make quick money from opportunities unavailable in mature markets in the “West” with developed legal systems.
And the truth is you got your ass kicked, and you are blaming the casino for taking your money.
“Court work in China isn’t cheap in either though. The court fees aren’t so expensive but by the time you have paid your lawyer and greased palms along the way, it costs a lot of money as well.”
So you are telling me you want to pay money one way, but not the other?
That you sulk because there was a way for you to pay less under the flexible, undeveloped system, but you didn’t know how to take advantage of it, lost, and so you are blaming the system itself?
Ever heard of the fable of the fox and sour grapes by Aesop?
“By the way, you clearly missunderstand what goes on at law school. In Western law schools, you learn law and you also learn how to research law due to its ever changing nature.”
That’s great. Hire them, and do business in the West.
Scoobydo said
You seem be a little out on a limb here with your sweeping assumptions.
By the way, just because Chinese can’t get away with bribing judges in the USA in contrast to China where you can, you don’t need to get all sore about it.
Just honour your contracts and try to avoid the natural Chinese businessman’s instinct to lie, cheat and commit fraud.
0112337 said
“Just honour your contracts and try to avoid the natural Chinese businessman’s instinct to lie, cheat and commit fraud.”
And you Scooby, should step out of your typically western, ignorant, racist little box. The West has a more sophisticated and developed legal system precisely because westerners were much more crafty in their “instinct to lie, cheat, and commit fraud” in the past. Without your legal system, you westerners wouldn’t have a society, with the amount of petty conflicts inherent in your societies over anything and everything.
And then again, if you work in my profession, perhaps you will realize that the difference between a western businessman and a Chinese one is simply that the latter is still an amateur at the game. He uses bribes and gets caught while the former does…well…lets just say something else…and gets away.
Of course, I will keep your outsider’s perspectives in mind…uber professor.
Slap2tickle said
On a roll, best read I’ve had in ages… @ 0112337, please keep the posts coming, we really do enjoy you making an arse of yourself.
0112337 said
“we really do enjoy you making an arse of yourself.”
Yeah, you are right. I am not evil enough. Go ahead, laugh.
Chinese Netizen said
LOL ha ha
LMAO Ho ho LOL
Scoobydo said
“And you Scooby, should step out of your typically western, ignorant, racist little box”
Making a statement of fact that Chinese people can’t bribe judges in the USA while they can in China doesn’t make me an ignorant racist in a little box(?).
You tried to equate having to pay expensive lawyers in the USA with bribery and corruption in the legal system in China.
Even a fool could see that the two are not the same so it is disingenuous of you to try to legitimise the unethical and illegal conduct by Chinese judges and businessmen by asserting that they are.
“The West has a more sophisticated and developed legal system precisely because westerners were much more crafty in their “instinct to lie, cheat, and commit fraud”
An interesting assertion. Do you have any evidence to prove that or did you just pull it out of the air?
I would be fascinated to hear the history of Western legal development from you.
Oh, by the way, you won’t find many people defending bankers (you are one yourself of course) but while I agree with you that Chinese businessmen are like Western bankers, you make the mistake of assuming that the vast majority of Western businessmen are like Chinese businessmen.
By the way, you being a banker, how did the banks end up as zombies, in your opinion?
0112337 said
“Making a statement of fact that Chinese people can’t bribe judges in the USA while they can in China doesn’t make me an ignorant racist in a little box(?).”
Let me quote you again and hopefully you will see what I mean yourself, “Just honour your contracts and try to avoid the natural Chinese businessman’s instinct to lie, cheat and commit fraud.”
Sweeping generalizations about an entire race is usually called “racist”.
“You tried to equate having to pay expensive lawyers in the USA with bribery and corruption in the legal system in China.”
All I am saying is that it is a cost both ways, one is not better than the other in this respect.
It is always better to have low costs.
“An interesting assertion. Do you have any evidence to prove that or did you just pull it out of the air?”
I heard about this while chatting with my friend who was a lawyer sometime ago. I don’t know the exact details, but if I ever get a hold of him again, I will ask him.
MyLaowai said
“Sweeping generalizations about an entire race is usually called “racist”.”
Doesn’t mean it isn’t true though, whatever it’s generally called. Especially in this case.
All I am saying is that it is a cost both ways, one is not better than the other in this respect.”
Wrong. One is certainly better than the other.
“It is always better to have low costs.”
Not at the expense of justice.
Face it sonny, you’re batting on a sticky wicket with this one, as well you know.
0112337 said
“By the way, you being a banker, how did the banks end up as zombies, in your opinion?”
This is cyberspace and so I generally don’t talk about my occupation, but since you are interested, I will tell you a bit about what I know on this issue.
The financial crises which began in America was a perfect storm. By perfect storm I mean everything that could go wrong went wrong all at once. The roots of the problem lie in the trading of a type of derivatives called “Asset Backed Securities” and the bursting of the U.S. housing market. Asset Backed Securities are essentially chopped up securities made from mortgage obligations and are supposedly (I am not 100% sure on this, so don’t quote me) created by BlackRock.
This was a very risky type of security. The problem with it is,
1. It’s hard to valuate.
2. It’s hard to calculate its risk.
Unlike conventional securities, which are traded in the stock market, this type of security does not have an active market, so it is very hard to put a value on them. This fact caused the downfall of Lehman Brothers and Bear Stearns. They had so much of this “toxic security” on its account books that they could not possibly cover them and maintain their operations. It was like a gigantic bottomless pit that could not be filled.
The second problem with this type of derivative is its risk. Being fairly new, most people in the industry did not have a good fool-proof model to calculate its risk. It was a sort of learn as we go along type of thing. Although some economists and quants foresaw the bursting of the U.S. housing market, most did not believe them. Nobody actually believed the U.S. housing market was going to crash… If it didn’t crash, there wouldn’t have been a problem.
But it did crash, and suddenly those mortgage backed securities became almost worthless after so many defaults by dumb, poor, American schmucks who felt like they were entitled to a house.
And the U.S. government tried to contain the problem by letting Lehman fall. But what they didn’t realize was this caused a global panic and a subsequent credit crunch. People were too afraid to invest and to expand, and this caused the greatest U.S. recession since the Great Depression.
———————————————————————
Now, you may say we are thieves, that we take risks and got hit for doing so. But what you and most other outsiders don’t know is if the risks were calculated correctly, there would have been no problems with trading these. People in the industry are working hard making risk models as I write.
Like scientists in the 1800s, we took a step forward but fell down because of some unforeseen variables. But that does not mean we should not stand up, learn from our mistakes, and move forward.
Without us, the U.S. would immediately lose its global competitive edge.
Scoobydo said
It is a statement of fact that Chinese businessmen lie, cheat and commit fraud on a massive scale.
You know that yourself. So does every Chinese person except the youngest and most naive. So do foreign businessmen who have done business in China.
The fact is, 10-15 years ago Chinese businessmen didn’t have a bad reputation in the business community. Nowadays they have a terrible reputation. Possibly the worst in the world.
That poor reputation didn’t arise due to racism.
It arose due to the lying, cheating and fraud committed by Chinese businessmen.
0112337 said
It is getting better now. These problems are the results of an inadequate legal system. Like I said, China is really at where America was during the 20s. But it will get better as the legal system matures. The ones who cheat, lie, and fraud will not survive in the long run.
The story goes, J.P. Morgan gained prominence precisely because he was the one with the greatest trust amongst all the other crooks of that era.
Don’t take what you see now as indicative of how things will be in 10 years.
But you are right. Things are atrocious right now. The banks in China regularly deals with the underworld. When they can’t get their loans back, they usually sell them at a discount to gangs who would then use their ways to get their money back.
Scoobydo said
I appreciate your opinion as an insider in the banking industry.
While banks were forced to make subprime loans by the US government (hence the initial cause of the crisis wasn’t the banks fault), the US subprime crisis led to loses of only $150 million.
The real problems as I understand them are
(1) Banks are no longer separated into commercial and investment banks with the consequence that commercial banks can speculate with retail investors deposits instead of acting as effectively trustees.
In other words, commercial banks use the money placed into bank accounts by you and I to play the stock market – much as they did before the great depression.
(2) Banks over-leverage themself (for the non financially minded – borrowing too much money and using it to increase their potential profits or more to the point increase their potential loses to the point where they put themself out of business).
(3) Excessive levels of Credit Default Swaps. In theory CDS should operate as insurance shifting risk from the hedger to the speculator.
In reality, banks used them to gamble on transactions they had no financial stake in. A good analogy would be the HBSC Bank gambling that the Pope wouldn’t pay his mortgage owed to the Bank of Rome.
If the Pope didn’t pay, then HSBC’s Credit Default Swap paid out.
In other words, the banks were engaged in gambling not hedging their risks.
Its the CDSs that are running into the trillions of dollars.
Outstanding CDSs amount to 6 times the planets entire GDP if memory serves me correct.
That’s a lot of irresponsible gambling by banks.
“But what you and most other outsiders don’t know is if the risks were calculated correctly, there would have been no problems with trading these. People in the industry are working hard making risk models as I write.”
It is a mistake to think that financial models can allow you to insure away your risk.
Besides the fact that all the models are based on very questionable assumptions and the fact is that no one really understands them including the people who develop them (which isn’t so surprising since they are written by people with math/engineering backgrounds not business), at the end of the day, they take a micro not a macro view and largely exist to merely justify the high risk behaviour already decided by the board of directors.
In other words, taking a macro view, If CDS are about 6 times the Global GDP who exactly is going to pay them out if, as happened, a large proportion of the banks gambling should pay out?
Scoobydo said
The financial crises which began in America was a perfect storm. By perfect storm I mean everything that could go wrong went wrong all at once. The roots of the problem lie in the trading of a type of derivatives called “Asset Backed Securities” and the bursting of the U.S. housing market.
You mean Collateral Debt Obligations?
The banks actually pulled a fly one there. They decided to classify some of the sub prime mortgages as top grade AAA investments (although they were anything but) and sell them onto unsuspecting investors.
How can sub prime mortgages to meth dealers and the like be a top grade investment?
The banks decided that even if a large proportion of meths dealers defaulted on their mortgage, they couldn’t all do so at the same time.
Hence the unidentified (and unidentifiable) meth dealers who wouldn’t default were top grade investments!
Lots of investors got their fingers burnt with that. Funnily enough, the banks didn’t.
There was no perfect storm.
The banks largely caused their own problems by
(i) gambling with ordinary depositors’ money (you and I’s money),
(ii) borrowing huge amounts to gamble on the markets and
(iii) selling insurance (Credit Default Swaps) to each other even though they didn’t have the assets to pay out the sums they were insured to pay. 6 times the world’s GDP no less.
Few people actually understand what the banks were (and still are) up to. The more you understand the more horrifying it becomes.
To add insult to injury the US banks and hedge funds are now going after European government debt. Debt used to bail out European banks.
Never mind the fact that if they succeed they will ruin Europe. If they do succeed, it will be more business for US banks and even bigger bonuses for them!!
They are attacking the European debt by engaging in naked short selling.
Selling shares and bonds they don’t own to drive the price down. So they sell them at $100 today and once they have driven the price down to say $80 they buy them back, effectively making a profit of $20.
If you are big enough to sell enough shares you don’t own, you can hardly fail.
Germany banned naked short selling last month to the huge consternation of the US and UK financial sectors.
0112337 said
Touche Scooby. Can I ask what you do for a living? What are you doing in China?
Scoobydo said
I teach Law & Accounting (and a little finance).
I no longer live in the middle country.
0112337 said
Scooby,
Please forgive me for being rude to you earlier. I didn’t think there would be professors and serious people posting on this ridiculous blog.
I agree with many of your points. In my opinion, markets would be so much more stable and efficient if derivatives are not traded as freely as they are. Some of them are very, very dangerous. CDOs are just one such thing in our toolbox. Sometimes people in the industry simply don’t understand them adequately enough to be playing with them.
I was talking with one of my colleagues a few years ago and he told me that two or three traders from Citibank almost ruined the Bank of Germany years ago. Apparently, Bank of Germany gave Citibank sole distribution rights to its government bonds and these traders devised a scheme where they would essentially short the bond in massive quantities within a few hours. It was highly elaborate, they hired the top computer software engineers to create a computer program that would allow them to carry out this operation. And they succeeded…with the result that each earned enough to retire forever and to pass a large sum to their children and grandchildren.
They escaped, and from what I know, they have yet been caught. Needless to say, the Bank of Germany and the German government were very, very upset.
0112337 said
But I am curious, how is it like in Europe in regards to the Glass-Steagall Act and capital market regulations? Derivative trading cannot be as developed there as in the U.S. and I would imagine it is also more regulated over there?
Can you share a bit on these topics?
Scoobydo said
Please forgive me for being rude to you earlier. I didn’t think there would be professors and serious people posting on this ridiculous blog.
Why not? You may be surprised. By the way, I don’t take myself that seriously.
But I am curious, how is it like in Europe in regards to the Glass-Steagall Act and capital market regulations?
I think the vast majority of the derivative trading in Europe goes on in London (80%?).
The UK Financial Services Act 1986 deregulated the banking sector including removing the courts right to oversee derivatives in terms of the Gaming Act 1845 as essentially speculative gambling devices (which they often are) and later the Bank of England was removed from its oversight position over the financial markets to be replaced by a regulatory authority.
I don’t think there was ever the equivalent of the Glass-Steagall Act in the UK (although some legislation existed). Prior to 1986 the commercial and investment banks were separated but more by convention than by law.
The move of investment banks largely taking over the commercial banks started to occur in the UK after the 1986 act so the ill advised trend started in the UK well before the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 allowed it in the USA.
Interestingly, the 1986 act was introduced to make the city of London more competitive, which it did, but the British Banks mostly ended up taken over by foreign banks.
So the end up was
(1) London largely kept its forefront financial position and then later captured the derivative market but lost British ownership of the banks.
(2) The UK courts lost the right to treat derivatives as gambling (which they often are nowadays). Subsequent regulation appears to have been pretty ineffective/non existent.
(3) The speculative Investment banks (especially the foreign ones) started to take over the UK Commercial banks (the high street banks) and used ordinary peoples’ deposits to speculate on the Capital markets and Over The Counter derivative gambling (sorry trading).
Has OTC derivatives ever been regulated in the USA?
(4) The banks buggered it up after years of paying themselves huge bonuses and because they had lost ordinary peoples’ saving the governments had to bail them out.
Truly return is indeed a function of risk. High risk does lead to high returns – but only in the good times.
When the high risk worked out, the banks paid themselves huge bonuses. When the high risk didn’t work out, the banks were in a position to effectively force the governments to safeguard peoples’ saving and bail them out in the process. And they still paid themselves huge bonuses!
Go figure.
Make non mistake. The banks have successfully made a huge power grab.